01 | The Signal: UFOs, Consciousness & The Launch of What It Means to Be Human

Speaker 1 (00:00.233) Something in order. Speaker 2 (00:10.698) Welcome, welcome, welcome to What It Means To Be Human. I'm your host, Dan Zetterstrom, and in each episode, I'm going to be exploring profound questions and thought-provoking ideas with the leading voices from around the world. From the depths of the ocean to the edges of the universe, discover what connects us all and walk with us as we explore and redefine what it means to be human. If you don't know who I am, you might know me from That UFO podcast. You might have seen me on Ancient Aliens. If you've seen... Tom Delonge's Blink-182 shirt around, the Tom Was Right design. That was me. You can blame me for that. It is everywhere. I apologize, but also I don't. However, I want to introduce you to my incredible co-host for this show, the one and only Roz Mugford. How you doing, Roz? hi, Dan. I'm good. How are you? I'm great, thank you. So let's tell people a little bit about you. Who are you? What is your... Who am I? I don't know. I mean, that's I was thinking when I reached out to you the first time. I was like, Dan has no idea who I am, right? Well, I mean, I'm a producer. I'm based out of Canada, obviously. I have a production company here named Double Barrel that's been in operation for like over a decade, dating myself just slightly. But I have a huge interest in the topic of, you know, UAP, ufology, also consciousness theory and study. Speaker 1 (01:30.702) And I've done, you know, different projects in those spaces over the years. I'm also a yoga teacher, Dan, and I teach meditation. you know, the idea of consciousness and what it all means is super interesting to me. So yeah, so that's a little bit about me. I produce, I direct, I write, I do all that stuff, usually for clients. And so this is really exciting to me to be able to be here and talking about the subject, obviously, with you, because I was a huge follower and have been a huge follower of that UFO podcast. So of course, I know all about you and the show. And so to be here with you is kind of like a wild thing for me. It's like a little bit like, how did this happen? You know, it's crazy. But I love it as going from listener to us here chatting. I mean, this is what what's it all about, right? It's all about making cool stuff and talk about things that you're excited about in curiosity, you know. So here we are. Here we are. Absolutely. It connects us with people that, you one of my favorite things about the communities, I've found so many friends who are like-minded, just as kind, and they're all about, in the future, we kind of want to walk lightly and consider the ecosystems around us and how we're all connected. And yeah, it's nice to have people in your life that think and walk like that. And as soon as we spoke, was like, Ruzz is like that. I know. And I just want to highlight to people, a little bit, you touched on it little bit, but you interviewed Stanton Friedman, right? Like, that's nothing to sniff at. Yeah, years ago. This is like 2015. So my husband and I have been following, I mean, I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid, right? So I think as most of us who were interested in the subject. But yeah, in 2015, there was a UFO conference being held in Brantford, Ontario, which is a small community outside of Hamilton. And this is before the big, you know, 20, is it 2017 New York Times piece that came out about the Nimitz. So, you know, interest was still kind of not the fever pitch it is now. Speaker 1 (03:28.974) And Stanton was there, Stanton, Richard Dolan, Nick Pope, Stephen Bassett was there. So we interviewed all of them. We did an interview with, Travis Walton. I got to interview Travis Walton. I got the pictures. Like it was wild, you know, for my husband Dale and I to go from being, you know, like seeing these people on ancient aliens, Dan, and other shows, you know, other films, documentaries and stuff. to like being there with them and actually having this time with them was a mind blowing experience. And yeah, Stanton, mean, we got him to sign a copy of Project Blue Book. had them there. He was selling them, know, at the conference. So we got him to sign one and we have photo with him. And yeah, it was amazing. It was like, you know, UFO, UFOlogy royalty, right? Super cool. Yeah, absolutely. I also wanted to highlight your work with Indigenous peoples in Canada. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, in the last number of years, we've been doing a lot of work within Indigenous communities, mostly in different kind of areas like healthcare, also working with TD Bank, working on their national campaign that was public facing video pieces that went up on YouTube and all that stuff for TD around specific weeks here in Canada that celebrate Indigenous peoples. yeah, and then... Like just this past month, I actually received my Metis status. So I'm now officially a member of Indigenous Peoples in Canada, which is kind of wild. I've been on my own journey with that over the last year of discovering my heritage and going back into my great-great-great-grandmother and discovering who she was and finding out that yes, I'm Metis myself. So yeah, it's been kind of a crazy year. And you were doing the same thing right down when you were in Colombia those years ago. Speaker 2 (05:19.616) Yeah, that's right. You know, I guess I left that out of my introduction. I should have put it in there. But yeah, I went to Colombia to do an investigation of these lights on a mountain. We'll get to it in an upcoming episode. And yeah, I worked with indigenous communities and peoples there and we built wells and they showed us kind of the ceremonial temples and things like that. Really incredible, really unique and really kind of paradigm shattering. You know, you kind of get that when you go traveling, that culture shock. It was a little bit of that for me. so the growth that came out of that experience was, I can't even put a value on it. You know, it was just incredible. Yeah, and you and I have Columbia in common because I've been in Columbia and that was another thing we realized when we started talking was that I have actually a partner in Columbia that I work with who does a lot of my animation work for Double Barrel. And so I've been there, I've been to Medellin, I've been to Cali, but your experience there was really spiritual and so cool. I watched Phenomenology, right? The doc that you guys produced out of that trip. That was epic. loved what you guys did with that project. out there that hasn't seen it yet, Phenomenology, I think it's on YouTube, right? It is on YouTube also. We'll pop a link in the description and you guys can go watch it for free and enjoy it. It's kind of produced like a nature documentary as opposed to a UFO documentary. That was the thing because this stuff is just nature. don't understand, right? Speaker 1 (06:50.39) Yeah, and the way you were capturing the lights on the mountain and the, I love the filming style of it. I love the like grittiness of it. And the fact you guys were all filming on iPhones and like as a producer, I can appreciate it, right? Like watching that and going like, wow, they stitched this all together and everybody was shooting and like, what a cool way to do something like that. You know, such an adventure, right? And when you don't have big budgets, how do you do that? You know? Ashley did an amazing job with that. It produced by Ashley Cowie and his wife, Natalia Castellanos, and both incredible workers. And yeah, they absolutely nailed it. And for those who are going, what are Dan and Ros talking about right now? I am actually tonight, September 5th, on Ancient Aliens talking about this very thing. I think you film a bunch with them and then they kind of cut it all around and stuff like that. I'm putting it different episodes, so I think it's the Columbia episode tonight called the Volcano. Is that what it is? my gosh, I'm so excited. Episode 21, episode 10, if you want to see this face on ancient aliens. I tried to do lots of the hand thing, so that hopefully we can get some memes out of it, but we'll see what happens. Speaker 2 (08:00.174) The Georgio does the alien. that's good. So I was trying to do that. great. Yeah. my gosh, I love that. Well, I'm super excited and people who like, cause they're going to hear this after it goes to air, you'll probably be able to find it on like history.com or history. It'll be on the history channel. I'm sure it'll be out there on the high seas as well if anyone wants to. Yeah, history channels weird in Canada just saying like we have a really weird like Ugly stepsister of a broadcaster version of history channel. I don't know It's like, know that you get the main stuff in in the US on history channel But then in Canada, it's like the government has regulated what needs to be shown and the types of content And so it's very strange what we get here So anyway, we do, I think we buy ancient aliens. think we watch it on Apple or something like that. we have, yeah, we have to kind of get it from a streaming service, but yeah, I'm so excited. Congratulations. Speaker 2 (08:57.582) Thank you. It's a long time coming. I filmed that like a year ago before I was in the US. So it's fun to see it and it's always interesting to see. I filmed with them for like five hours and they might use 10 seconds, you know. So I guess we'll see. But very cool to be a part of it. They're all very humble and kind and super supportive and lovely whenever I go work with them. And so I keep working with them, you know. I'm basically a regular at this point. Oh my gosh, that is so cool. I can't even believe it. I know I was telling my husband about it last night. He was just like, what? I'm like, yeah, we got to watch it. He's going to be on Ancient Aliens. Awesome. Well, should we talk about this show or what? I we're talking about all the other stuff. Okay. Before we get to that, I just want to give people a clear indication. On a scale of one to ten, where are we in our belief in the phenomena? One is, I'm a debunker. I don't believe in any of it. I am so skeptical that nothing wonderful is possible. And on the other end, a ten is, I believe everything and my brain falls out of my head so often. So we're on the scale here. I'm going to say I don't believe everything, so I'm not all the way to a 10. I like to think I'm kind of like 50 % Scully with like 25 % Mulder. So I'm kind of like, I'm going to say like a 7.5-ish somewhere in there. Nice. Okay, nice. So I would, I try and describe myself as a, or often describe myself, I should say. I'm going to say that again. I often describe myself as a UAP centrist. So I see myself around five to seven where I try and sit in the middle, but I know I have a bias towards these things because of my own experiences, which I will talk about, not now. We will get into that. Speaker 1 (10:40.206) Yes. Love it. So yeah, okay. So we're a five and a seven. Nice. But you're not in the subject every day, right? Like, so I'm on Twitter or X now, guess. Blue Sky and, you know, I'll consume everything I possibly can. You're not the same, is that right? Yeah, no, I I spend probably too much time on the Reddit boards. like, I'm usually looking at like, I have a feed on Reddit that is just UFO communities, let's put it that way. I follow like UFO, what is it like, UFOs, R UFOs, UFOB, know, high strangeness. All those. Yeah, all those. But you know, there's so much infighting going on on those platforms that sometimes it's a bit much. so I kind of duck in and out, I kind of will, I'll pop in and see what's happening. And then I kind of leave for a while and then I'll come back maybe, you know, a couple of weeks later and check it out and then kind of duck out. I, have gone through phases where I've been literally up on absolutely everything. And you know, like watching Ross cold heart every night, you know, during the drone stuff and all of that, like I go through kind of phases where I'm, watching all of it, but yeah, in general, probably like a weekly thing. bi-weekly, kind of like the signal, like what we're going to do. Speaker 2 (11:50.094) Yeah, sure. Okay, so let's get into it. And I think you touched on something that's really important to say here. This show, we want this to be a space where kindness and inclusive are right at the top of our list. So when it comes to drama and infighting, we're not going to be talking about it. I'm not going to tell you about who hates who on UFO Twitter over on X. I do not care. We are here to talk about UFOs, high strangeness and the world around us and to get some perspective. And so, yes, we... That's our modus operandi, I guess. And to do that, we have several different episode types that people will see. So first up, we're going to have a show called The Black Mailbox. That is a mailbag episode. So you can send in your questions and things like that. And we'll read them out on the show. We'll do that as often as we need to. And we'll see how much going forward that happens. But if you want to send us anything, like a question, a hello, anything like that. send it to hello at to be human show.com and in the subject just pop mailbox. If you forget that, don't worry too much. But the email address one more time for you is hello at to be human show.com. Then we break our episodes down. If you watched the X files, you know the structure. We all know and love it. The mythology episodes. and the monster of the week episode. we kind of divide our show 50-50 into that. We have an episode called Contact, where we're going to be talking to witnesses of high strangeness, of UFOs, people who have experienced contact. If that describes you, please again, email hello at tobehumonshow.com and in the subject just pop contact and we'll get in touch with you and I'd love to have you on. This is a judgment free zone. I would love to give people space and a voice to talk about their experiences. work through them. A lot of heaviness comes with these things too. In other Monster of the Week shows, we have something called Outside the Lines. So that'll kind of be a variant thing going forward. For example, we might look at the defense intelligence research documents, the DIRD documents produced by Bigelow one week, or we might look at FluxLiner stuff, or we might look at a specific case. It is malleable. So that's always going to be a fun, flexible space. Speaker 2 (14:13.25) Then we've got our mythology episodes, which consist of our interviews and our new show. Our new show is called The Signal. You're watching that now. That's what this is. It's our very first episode. That will be bi-weekly, just an hour or so every other week. And it'll just catch you up. So if you're a busy person that has a life and doesn't want to sit, listen to podcasts all the time, that's the one you want to kind of come watch. We'll also be doing a fun little thing there, which we call UFO or UF no. And we'll be showing you a clip. You'll get the hour of the episode to decide what it is and then we'll reveal it at the end. If we know the answer, it won't always be something that is prosaic. And then we also have our interviews. I'm not going to spoil all the interviews that are coming up, but we got some really cool ones. We're keeping a diverse cast of characters there and we'll be starting off this week. Bye. Speaker 2 (15:07.118) with Richard Hattem. You might not recognize that name, but you should. Richard wrote the Mothman Prophecies movie, the one with Richard Gere, the one that everyone's mom loves, you know, because Richard Gere's in it. they watched it thinking it was like a romantic thing. then they were like, oh my God, what is this? I love it. Richard's been in this space for so long thinking about these things. He's made a show called Miracles. It was about, I think like X-Files-y, but someone's faith being tested. Really awesome TV show. Speaker 2 (15:36.224) He also worked on Teen Titans and he currently has his own podcast called Richard Hatham's Paranormal Bookshelf, which is one of my favorite podcasts. It's kind of semi-autobiographical, but he also talks about a specific UFO or high strangeness book every week in how it kind of relates to his life at the time. So you get to hear about how he grew up, what he thought of the phenomenon growing up and how this stuff impacted him. It's an incredible show. You'll laugh, you'll cry. It's just wonderful. I highly recommend you go listen to it. is Richard Hatton's Paranormal Bookshelf. But Richard and I got to talk about UFOs, the paranormal, the quirks of being human with a side effect of creativity because he is a script writer and he shares his ideas about inspiration, how you get started in the industry and things like that. So it's not just UFOs. You might, you know, get some career help here if you're a screenwriter or something like that. Think of it as cosmic mystery meets coffee shop conversation. Hopefully you'll really enjoy it. It'll make you curious and inspired and you'll kind of see the cozy vibe that we're going for here. I love that. And I want to mention too that like the show as it stands, we want to explore, you know, not just UFOlogy and UAP, but also, you know, the broader subject around that things like consciousness, right? Things like explorations into what makes us human, right? What makes us different from the world around us? What makes other creatures like us? I mean, another one of our first episodes is with Dr. Michel Fournier, who is a whale biologist and studies whale song and how they communicate. So we're also looking at the subject with a bigger lens and trying to break in some, you know, some topics and some breadth to the subject that maybe you don't find in other podcasts around the topic. So I'm excited about that. My yogi meditator brain is really excited about that because there's so much overlap in those worlds right now, you know, between like the idea of, you know, like Jacques Vallée would have said, like, Speaker 1 (17:30.762) are UFOs all in our minds, right? Is this like a giant kind of conjuration of the human psyche, right? And then from there you get into things like, well, you know, what about Buddhist philosophies and meditation and yoga philosophy around, you know, liminal states? And then you get into the Monroe Institute and like, what was happening there with, you know, gateway tapes and CIA and Stargate. And so there's so much cool overlap, I think, too, that we want to explore. So those things will be sprinkled in as well throughout the season. Absolutely. One of my hopes is that I met a neurosurgeon who was really into the phenomena and UFOs and he couldn't talk about it, you know, at work, but he would test people kind of with it. You know, he'd pour out questions to his colleagues like, what do you think about this? And, just to kind of test the waters. And when I met him, he mentioned about maybe doing, once we were up and running, doing a show where I actually got him to look at the gateway tapes and the CIA booklet and I would talk through it within neurosurgeon. So hopefully that's coming, but that's the kind of angle that we're going for here. Like no messing around. just, let's just go for it. Let's experience these things and try and figure them out together. We'll also have some meditative moments. So this community is stressful. like Ross said, you know, it just, gets dramatic. So as I've been traveling around the world the last few years, I've been filming things as I've been going and we're to be releasing those as just 60 second meds to the moments. If you see one, just take a beat, just slow down, just watch it for 60 seconds and then carry on with your day. I promise you will feel thankful for that little bit of thinking space and I hope it helps. And if you like what we're doing here, you can support us by subscribing to the YouTube, the Spotify. Apple podcast, wherever you get your podcast, it will be. And we'll also have a Patreon where the link is below where we'll be doing a one hour live chat every month. So if you want to get in on that, just go join our Patreon. We'll be posting lots of content over on the Patreon as well. There's a lot of stuff I've done over the past four or five years that is just no longer available. know. So I'll be pouring it all back up there and hopefully some treats too. We'll be having a lot of fun with it. Speaker 1 (19:44.984) You know what we could also post up there is the interview that I did with Stanton Friedman because it's not available anywhere online right now. Top secret. Top secret. why I'm whispering. I'm whispering about it. I love that. Yes, please. Let's do Speaker 2 (19:57.55) So if you want to find our Patreon, search for what it means to be human on socials. We are to be human show on everything. And if you want to have a look on our glorious website designed by Ross's partner, he did an incredible job. It is to be human show dot com. So that is to be human show dot com. Not like to the letter and then a letter B. Oh, sorry, the number and then a letter B. Literally to be human show dot com. You got it. Right. OK, nice. Awesome. All right. Want to get into it? Want to get into the next part of the show? This is like, you know, our introduction is over. I hope you guys feel cozy and settled in. We're going to hit the ground running here and go for it. Beginning with UFO or UF no. Speaker 2 (20:46.392) found this clip whilst I was about online. Someone posted it as a, at this crazy thing I saw in the sky. it enamored me. It tickled me. I sent it to Roz. We thought we would use it for this first episode. So Roz is going to play it for you. We're going to react to it. And like I say, you've got the hour or however long until the end of this episode. And then we will tell you what it actually is. Okay. So, Roz, hit that. Take it away. Here we go. So very sure that's it play it again play it again. This is it at 0.5 speed. It's manic. It looks so weird isn't it. It's even more hilarious when you hear that music in slow-mo. I'm sorry, but it is just... No, you enjoy it. You enjoy that. Speaker 1 (21:36.55) Sorry, okay, so we played it a lot of times. Okay, one one more time. Okay, I just feel like we don't want to give people too much. Okay, here we go. I'm in slow mo. Speaker 2 (21:47.918) Imagine seeing that. Okay, that's enough. Okay, turn it off. That's it. Okay, stop. There we go. Get off our screen. video. And there are crazy videos like that everywhere. So if you find one again, please send it in. Hello at tobehumorshow.com. I am getting better at saying that email address. Back way into our kind of new show. And there's really only one bit of news that everybody is talking about right now, because it's all eyes on the congressional hearing. So we thought we'd do a little reflection, a bit of a timeline run up, because some people might be watching this who are just not into the UFO thing. and just share our thoughts, like a hearings preview type thing. Speaker 1 (22:32.098) I got my papers here, Dan. I feel very official. I'm like, tell me about the congressional hearing. Okay. So in 2017, you almost need like this news music behind us, right? that's me, right? Sorry. 2017. No, I'll go with the Marian music. Yeah. Speaker 2 (22:51.81) So in 2017 we had the big release that kind of shook up everything in ufology. To the Stars Academy of Arts and Sciences launched the project from the mind of Tom DeLong, the guitarist from Blink-182, who'd kind of been dragged into a lot of government stuff over the years, talking to witnesses of UFO experiences and things like that as he was touring with the band. He supposedly got the inside track with a few government insiders that he's never revealed. Then a WikiLeaks thing happened. And in WikiLeaks, there were emails between Tom and some top generals like Neil McCasland, John Podesta too, yes. And everyone was kind of rolling their eyes at him when he was saying this before this stuff leaked. And when it leaked, everyone kind of went, wow, he's serious. So this led to them launching a whole line of books called secret machines, which supposedly folds in accurate UFO info that Tom is given by these government advisors. Podesta too, right? Speaker 2 (23:50.226) into kind of like a fictional story that has real elements to it. He then went on to launch to the stars Academy of Arts and Science where Luis Elizondo made his debut to the world after resigning from the DOD in protest of people not paying attention to the UFO issue. Lou ran a program called ATIP, for the DOD, which investigated UFOs and ATIP came from a program called Orsapsi, I told you there were a lot of acronyms here, that was run by Robert Bigelow, investigating stuff on Skinwalker Ranch, as well as UFO sightings around the world. then in December 2017, the New York Times releases an article kind of blowing the lid on all of this. And along with that, the public gets the video of the Tic Tac, it gets the GoFast video and... It also gets the gimbal video. If you don't know any of those, just search those terms and they will pop up. So that kind of started the ball rolling in 2021. I believe we had a task force, a UAP task force established. I think I got that wrong. I think it was much earlier. But we had a UAP task force established that was led by Jay Stratton, who is supposedly bringing out a book. And the UAP task force were investigating all things UFO for the DOD. So then in 2021, Senator Kristen Gillibrand puts forward and supports legislation to improve the task force. this point, like we're getting UFO legislation passed in the US. This is huge. This is a historical first for everybody, right? So then in 2022, ARROW is established, the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. That's the big one. Yeah. Speaker 2 (25:35.468) That's the big one. That's what we have to this day now. We have someone else running it now as opposed to who began. That was Sean Kirkpatrick. And he was not a big fan of the UFO issue. He ended up kind of downplaying everything saying that it's just a bunch of obsessed people twisting the arms of people in Congress and things like that. But he also said he had nothing to do with the subject before he came into the office to look after it. And Brandon Fugal. of Skinwalker Ranch fame, he owned Skinwalker Ranch, said, what are you talking about, Sean? Here's a picture of you at a Skinwalker Ranch briefing way before you say you were interested, looking directly at the camera. My intern took this picture. That's how that cookie crumbled. was crazy. So then every year the U.S. government or ODNI has to release a UFO report essentially. That's right. Speaker 2 (26:34.206) or a UEP report they're calling it now, unidentified anomalous phenomena. And when they released that, it's really dry, just includes the stats, there's stuff, we don't know what it is, yeah, you know, no aliens. And so everyone kind of rolls their eyes at that. of a poor... No aliens, yeah. No proof of aliens, they say, but it's weasel language, right? Because we don't have proof of aliens means we haven't seen the alien enter its front door and go home to its planet. No aliens. Speaker 2 (27:02.826) So what do you have proof of guys? Let's talk about that. That's kind of why everyone's thinking of it. And it's weasel word to that like extraterrestrial weasel word, right? Where it's like, well, yeah, they could say that they don't, there's nothing extraterrestrial, you know, but we know now too, that a lot of the speculation is maybe these objects are already here. So that would mean they're not extraterrestrial, right? So just the word extraterrestrial is a weasel word, right? Yes, exactly. It's thread in the needle through language so you don't have to confirm that there's something unknown out there. And yeah, people didn't like that. So then come to 2023 released in July, the UAPDA or the UAP Disclosure Act. It is basically a really ambitious piece of legislation to force government transparency on UFOs. The bill calls for all federal UAP records to be reviewed and where possible released within 25 years, similar to the JFK. releases that they did, though we still don't have all of those released. A weakened version made it into lore. And to be honest, it marked the most serious effort yet in terms of being thorough and closing loopholes and things like that. The UAPDA will go on to be reintroduced to successive years in the future. So 2023, 2024, and 2025, which we are now brought to. So. September, 2025, have the UAPDA reintroduced by members on opposite sides of the aisle who don't usually go on anything, but they agree on this. that's kind of a revelation, right? And also we've got another hearing coming up. Not only have we had people like Lou and David Grush testify, but now we're getting some more people. Speaker 1 (28:39.783) Speaker 2 (28:55.502) David Grush, by the way, around, I want to say, 2023, July, middle of the year he came forward. David Grush is a former US Air Force officer and intelligence official who served for the Air Force, the United States Air Force, and held positions at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and the National Reconnaissance Office. He was the go-to at the NRO for the UEP task force back when they were running. So he's got a lot of experience and he went off and he did his own investigation and he says that he met over 40 people who worked on a legacy program where they were recovered bodies, they were recovered craft and they're all being hidden from the American people. He handed Congress a witness list, he handed Congress a hostile witness list and we haven't really seen much happen after that. But that was big. Can you remember Grush coming out, Roz? yeah, definitely. David Grush was huge. That was a big turning point, I think, for the community, right? Because then also he went and testified at Congress and they all, there's that famous photo of him standing there taking the oath, right, with his hand up alongside David Fravor. And who was the other person that was there in the first hearing? It was David Grush, David Fravor, and Ryan Graves. Ryan Graves, that's right. Yeah, what an amazing trio that was. I mean, that to me was... That was a historic moment, like seeing the three of them there, standing before Congress, hands up, taking the oath with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp sitting behind them. UFO journalists, George Knapp, famous journalist who interestingly enough has some ties to this new congressional hearing, right? So yeah, that was a cool moment. remember feeling like... Oh man, this is a watershed. This is it. I mean, how can the public look away from this topic at this point when you've got these people, their credibility, willing to stand there before Congress, raise the hand and say like, yes, we saw these things and no, they're not human. And I think David Gresh had some famous quotes in there about biologics and bodies. it just kind of blew the lid off. as all things UFO, it kind of it. Speaker 1 (31:08.598) it happened and then it just kind of disappeared a little bit and then we don't really hear anything about it anymore, you know? So I'm happy that we're getting to these new congressional hearings with new people to hopefully kind of shine the light back on it again, right? Yeah, absolutely. And David Grush now works for Representative Eric Burleson. So the witnesses and the questions that we're going to be hearing at the hearing are going to be informed by Grush's experience and why he's telling them. So I'm really excited to see that. And that will kind of be a subtly a play, think. So people should keep an eye on that. Then I realized I skipped a bit of the timeline. So in November 2024, there was another hearing, the Committee on Oversight and Accountability. It was called UAP Exposing the Truth. The witnesses in this hearing were Luis Elizondo, Tim Gallaudet, former NASA official Michael Gold, and also journalist Michael Schellenberger. And this was big because Lou's book had come out by now. He'd kind of told everything that he can tell really. And people were saying, well, why don't you go swear to Congress if you want us to believe you? And he did. He took the oath and he said everything. And as well as that, this was around the time where Yeah, that's him. Gallaudet. Yeah. Speaker 2 (32:23.884) Jeremy Corbell and Michael Schellenberger were teasing something called immaculate constellation. Matthew Brown, the witness who found this has since come forward and he's spoken about it himself. Basically he was a government employee who stumbled across something he shouldn't, tried reporting it, was kind of given weird treatment and told to just shut up and keep quiet. And he did, but he kept looking and he kept track. And over several months, years, he... Mm-hmm. Speaker 2 (32:51.714) came to the understanding that the US are gathering Intel on UAP. They're trying to exploit it. They have these big tracking programs, these big back engineering programs, and his mind was blown and his world was forever changed. He does have sub stack articles now. So you can go read his sub stack for a bit more. There's two parts so far, but a bit more kind of information there. So then in January this year, We had a task force on the declassification of federal secrets chaired by Representative Anna Paulina Luna at that point. They said they were going to tackle a whole bunch of issues like Epstein, MLK, JFK assassination, also UAP. They kind of dragged their feet on UAP for a little bit, but we are finally here to the results. In four days, as of, according to this, September 9th, Mm-hmm. Speaker 2 (33:44.546) the House Oversight and Reform Committee's Task Force on Declassification of Federal Secrets. show. a a hearing, briefing. I almost said screening then. Show's Putting on a show for the public that is called Restoring Public Trust Through UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection. I know, I know. Before we get into kind of talking about the witnesses and stuff, I just wanted to read Ana Polina Luna's bit in the press release. Because I find when people go into these hearings, they have expectations, they have hopes, they have dreams. Of course, they want alien bodies on the desk. That would be great. But that's never going to happen. And in these press releases, when they announce them, they tell you what they're looking for, why they're putting on this hearing. And this is no different. So I'm just going to read this so we know what the point of this is, what they're trying to do with it. Speaker 2 (34:40.418) So Anna Paulina Luna says, do you want to read it? I think it'd be cool if you read it. it is here. Dan, you've it right here in the document. Okay. Anna Paulina Luna, is she Republican Florida? Is that what R-FL means? Yes. Okay. As follows. During the hearing, members will hear from witnesses on the continued concerns regarding disclosure of unidentified anomalous phenomena and information held by federal agencies and will examine transparency issues surrounding the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Okay. Members will also analyze the work and effectiveness of the DOD's congressionally mandated All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office or AERO. Whistleblowers who provide details on spending information and policies and procedures regarding the classification and declassification of UAPs should be able to do so without retribution. I look forward to hearing from witnesses on how the federal government can improve transparency and provide better answers on UAPs. That is mind-numbing. Yeah, right. could be punchy. Right. I think what she's getting at is they want to highlight there are these service members who say they have information, but they're afraid to come forward. Everybody wants the people working in the programs and things like that. Over the decades of UFO stuff that's gone on, we've heard that people are off. know, John Mack famously was in London and people are like, was he run over? Speaker 1 (36:08.686) Bye. Speaker 2 (36:12.382) And sure, the less conspiracy minded out there would go, no, it was an accident. It's an unfortunate accident. yes, but what if I told you that two other John Maxx were killed by a car that same day? Twist, right? What? What? Get out of here. I have never heard that. Are you serious? Where did you find that? Two on the nose, No. Yeah, crazy. So he wasn't the only John Mack that was killed that day by a car. No way. Speaker 1 (36:41.326) I read that he was run over basically by an elderly man who was drunk. That's what I read. Sure. And could be a coincidence, you know, history rhymes it as a way. Wow, okay, that's crazy. That's crazy. So that brings us to the witnesses. So let's talk about the witnesses. We have Jeffrey Nuketali, or Nuketal, I could be saying his name wrong. Always feel free to correct me, dear audience. So he is a US Air Force veteran who has gone public about a 2003 mass UFO sighting at Vandenberg Air Force Base. That's right. It was observed for several days over several nights. Yeah. Speaker 1 (37:20.654) object Speaker 2 (37:25.902) Ryan Graves in that first hearing you mentioned even mentioned this event back then. So it's nice to Jeffrey kind of getting up there and being able to talk about this. That's going to be a good one. That's going to be a good one. Yeah. Then we have Dylan Boland, who is new. Not much is known about Dylan. So he's the wild card here, I think. His background, according to LinkedIn, he worked in geospatial intelligence. He was an analyst. That was for the Air Force. He was an intelligence analyst for BAE Systems. Long rumored to have a hand in the legacy UFO program. So maybe there could be something cool there. So maybe whistleblower, maybe whistleblower. Maybe. That would be nice. And then we also have, he works now for someone called Intrepid Solutions and Services LLC, which is geospatial analyst. So basically he's looking at videos and, you know, sensor readings of things in the sky, around our planet, trying to interpret them for intelligence agencies and pass them on to who needs to know. If there was one guy who was going to see a UFO video in passing, this is the guy, like that's his job. Speaker 1 (38:35.106) Okay. Maybe he came excited for that. I'm gonna share. Yeah. Okay. Alexandra Wiggins. yeah. Of course. Simpsons. love that. Yes. Okay. Navy veteran. Hey. reported a striking two, 2023 sighting off the California coast while serving on the USS Jackson. So that is, is that in and around the same area as the Nimitz like off the California coast? Yeah, Chief Wiggins. Speaker 2 (39:03.026) Yeah, those exercise areas out there. Nimitz being, again, for people that are listening and don't know, that's where the TikTok appeared in 2004. That's gonna be good one. Yeah. He's been on weaponized with Jeremy Cobel and George Knapp. He described a solid object rising silently from the ocean. He said it was unlike any vessel or aircraft he'd seen in his career and the ship's sensors ruled out reflections or conventional sources. Then moments later, three more objects appears and all four objects shoot off. together with no sound or visible disturbance heading northeast. Wiggins compared the object's flawless coordinated departure to a precise military formation under unified control. So almost like a hive mind, know, we always talk about that in these spaces. Speaker 2 (39:55.22) Like some kind of thing from the Abyss, That's exciting. That's exciting. Okay, I'm getting more interested in the congressional hearing, Dan. I'm more interested. And then we have one more. Would you like to go ahead with the last? I the one, the only George Knapp. Like I would tune in just to see him give testimony, right? So George Knapp is a long time journalist. He's based out of Vegas. He's like, you know, just when you think of a movie and you think of like a grizzled journalist who's seen it all, like that's George Knapp. That is who he is. okay. Well, of course there is, right? Of course there is. Yeah. So I mean, the fact that he's going to be there giving testimony, like I am super excited about that because There is a movie being made about him as well. Speaker 1 (40:37.25) you know, just his knowledge, the breadth of his knowledge, the depth of his knowledge, like what he can offer to this is just, I mean, there's so much that there's no way. I mean, that's the one thing I noticed with the first congressional hearing was, you know, they only have so much time to kind of speak, right? They have this limited time. They're given a couple of minutes. They have to kind of say everything they want to say in that tight time. You know, it's submitted to Congress before they even say it, you know, then they get questions after to kind of elaborate on some of the key points of it. But you know, it's going to be really interesting to see George just in that environment. Also, like, I love the attention that George is getting. I love that he's being lauded and brought out and for the world to see, like, what an amazing person this guy is. I just think, like, so interesting, so open-minded, you know, guy has a mantis farm at his house. Like, he's just so open-minded. You know, and he's just like, he's willing to explore these things and not be afraid, you know, because of all the stigma and he's done it for like 30 years or something. KLAS, right? In Vegas is the station that he works for. So, I mean, that in and of itself is just like, can't even, like, I just, I hope I meet him one day because I just want to say like, George Knapp, you're the bomb. It's all I can say. Like just the coolest guy to ever walk in the of the earth. I'm just going to call you Dan next to you. George is going to be really interesting because we've essentially got just three officials that have seen lights in the sky, right? That's how people will see it, I think. But as I said before, we're talking about whistleblowers and protection. This is the standard of evidence we will get without this whistleblower protection. So if you're frustrated, speak to your representatives and tell them you want whistleblower protection for this. And it needs to be more than just, you know, wishy washy language in terms of protection whistleblowers, because sure, you can put language in there that says they won't go to jail if they come forward. But that doesn't stop someone sneaking in in the middle of the night and putting two bullets in the back of their head, you know? Like, this is a different level of whistleblower protection and we need to take it seriously. I think Nap will be able to talk to that because through weaponize, through his work with Jeremy, he has spoken to supposedly scientists from inside the legacy program and things like that. I'm hoping George brings a bit of that to bear. George started with the Bob Lazar stuff. Speaker 2 (42:59.118) Of course, the electrifying thing he could do would just be to put element 115 that Bob Lazar supposedly stole from Area 51 on the table and go, that's what this is. There he is. Go test it. I mean, that was the cliffhanger in Jeremy's film about him, Like that was what they were trying to say, right? It's like he actually has a piece of this, right? And then his place gets rated. We're talking about Bob Lazar, not George Knapp. Yeah. And I wanted to throw in there too, like, so for Smart List, I don't know if you listen to Smart List, the podcast, they have this thing that they do where they'll, when they're talking inside baseball stuff, they will say, for Tracy in Arkansas, Or whatever, right? Which is like, you know, that's joke is that that's like Sean Hayes' cousin who like has no idea about all this inside baseball stuff they're talking about with a film and television industry, right? And then they'll kind of explain it. So I'm like, we need that for this show because I think like when I think of my friends and people who might be interested in this subject, like They have no idea about these congressional hearings. They have no idea what they are. They have no idea why they should care. First of all, it's like, so what? And then, my good friend, I won't name names. I won't name names. But messaged me and was like, my gosh, this congressional hearing is mind blowing. I had no idea that this is happening. So once people get to see it, they really understand why it's important. The language that Luna puts out in a press release and stuff is doing this subject no favors, right? It's like, it's not interesting at all. you know, like how for Tracy at home, you know, we need somebody at home, right? Like we need our, you know, our Sheila in Utah, you know. Speaker 2 (44:38.24) it that Chuck Schumer uses. talks about the Bailey's all the time. The Bailey's in like the average hard work in America. Okay, there go. you go. So for like for the Bailey's, you know, in middle North America, since we straddle the border, you know, like, why Dan, do you think people like should be interested in these congressional hearings? Like, what's the what's the the catch? Like, why? Well, that's exactly it. Like, I'm not sure they should be. They seem to be for people who really want proof, kind of put on a desk, you know? And like you said, the Bailey's have a different perspective on it when they see these things. I'm looking at this and going, three people that saw lights in the sky and a really interesting journalist who could have a lot of like really cool evidence. But someone back home might just... use that to write it off or they might use it to go, my God, someone in the Air Force and really high up is also seeing these things. Maybe there is a they're there after all. And they move into that. there's a sticker on the wall. I don't know if you can see it, but it says, it's the poster from Mulder's office and it says, believe Shmalev. What the fuck is that thing? And that's all we want to get to, And so this kind of gets us closer to it. We'll see what kind of questions the congressional members come with, but I'm hoping that they'll have some teeth because David Grush is on the staff now so we can kind of help direct them to be like, ask about this, ask about this, ask about this. And hopefully, yeah, we'll see. yeah, and there's also an effect of kind of like the snowball rolling, right? Like down a hill, kind of picking up, growing bigger and bigger and bigger. Speaker 1 (45:51.384) That's all we wanted. Speaker 2 (46:20.01) I was liking it to use another analogy very quickly, a lobster in a boiling pot of water. You know, like we've had three hearings now and we're going to get to a point where the Bailey's will shrug and go, okay, so we're not alone. I still have to go to work tomorrow. I've still got to pay my mortgage. I've still got to take my kids to school. Nothing actually changes for the majority of the people. Even if aliens came down tomorrow and started speaking to president Donald Trump. Only Donald Trump is going to have that in his worldview, right? Like most people around the world will either not see it or they won't care or their lives won't be affected. But for us, our hair will be on fire, right? Like we'd be running around going, we're not alone. We told you so, all this kind of thing. So I think it's just, it's a stepping stone in the conversation to get something. And it looks like they're trying to get whistleblower protection so that, you know, with the next hearing, They can say, know, know, there's a there there now. So now let's get some of these scientists out from the program and actually protect them and see what they have to say. And again, like for the Bailey's, it's the idea that, you know, there's companies, there's people that have knowledge and they can't come out and talk about this because they could either be sued. There could be, you know, they could go to jail in some cases, right? have agreements that they've signed with the government. So they can't just come out and say, yeah, I worked on this craft as part of a private company and we reverse engineered it. Or they can't say that because they've signed agreements that don't allow. And that's why So often these UFO whistleblowers don't come out until they're in their mid 70s and stuff because they're dying. on their deathbed. They're like, you know, I'm going to die within months and so I might as well say all my stuff now. Right? So this is really unique for these hearings to take place and for having these younger people to come out and talk about it. I'm not sure how old everybody is on the... Speaker 1 (48:17.262) panel, but usually like with the David Grush, David Fravers, know, they're like, you know, they're like mid career, right? Sometimes mid career, where they're taking the risk to come and say this. And that's why the whistleblower protection is so important, right? Is so that they have that. just for the folks that don't really grasp like, you know, why this matters that they're, they're doing this. Yeah. And credit to him, Tim Bush yet. think Republican Senator for Tennessee, I want to say that could be wrong. But he just introduced some whistleblower protection legislation this week. Not very extensive. It's kind of back of napkin stuff where he's like, just protect the whistleblowers. I appreciate the simplicity. That is what it comes down to. Just protect the whistleblowers. For God's sake, why have we got to do all this flowery language? But he's there trying to kind of get that stuff passed. So yeah, we'll see. All of that legislation will be folded into the NDAA, which is the National Defense Authorization Act 2025. So look for that over the coming months. And if it all passes through the House and Congress and through what they call conference, which is where House and Congress and Republicans, Democrats argue over what's going to be in there, then it gets to the president's desk probably around Christmas. So we'll be looking for that legislation there. Love that. that's a great segue. mean, so obviously in the States, like, you know, stuff is rolling, right? Like everything's happening. They're still talking about it. There's still hearings happening, right? There's still big discussion, you know, and in Canada, we've had in the last number of months, this Sky Canada project come out with a report, which is interesting. You know, in Canada, I don't know. I mean, here, like the UFO subject is Of course, people talk about it, it doesn't have the level of attention that it does in the US. So, you know, the idea that they're putting together this report, think, you know, after urging from the US government, I think there's been a push because there's been so much awareness around the, you know, the dangers of these objects and with the Navy and airline traffic and all of that stuff. Speaker 1 (50:27.116) You know, I think there's been a push towards more security. And so that's led Canada now to at least put together a report that starts to examine these things. We took a quick look at the report that they came out with. It's interesting. I mean, there was some really kind of cool data I thought just as like a, you know, Canadian citizen in terms of like, you know, over the course of your life, have you ever seen an object or phenomenon in the sky you could not identify? And it's over one in four people, Canadians say that they have seen something. So that's kind of interesting. know, moving down through the report, you know, did you report it? Among the respondents, only one in 10 reported or tried to report their experience. So there's a dearth of reporting of things in Canada. You know, they get into, there anybody, is there anybody collecting this information? The government, do you know who's collecting the information? Like trying to get a kind of a broad sense. of how much people know about the subject in Canada. And it's been really interesting. How much attention, if any of you paid stories about UAPs over the last two to three years, two thirds of respondents say they've paid attention. It's kind of like, loads of people are aware, but in much more subtler ways. know, they're not on X talking about it every day, but they're thinking about it and they're seeing things in the news about maybe SpaceX going to space and thinking, I wonder if the aliens have shown up. Yeah. And things like that, you know. Yeah, totally. There's another stat, you know, how likely would you be to use a mobile phone application to report information? You 40 % of respondents said they would use a mobile phone app to report. So it seems like there's a big interest in Canada. People are definitely interested in the phenomenon. A lot of people think they've seen something, but we haven't really had the, you know, the federal reporting mechanisms to report that. We've had things like MUFON and, you know, citizen science stuff. Speaker 1 (52:21.39) but nothing at the federal level. So I think that's kind of the niche that the Sky Canada report is looking to fill here in Canada. So that's good. So there's movement in Canada around the subject and around how we document it and how we're looking at it. And there was a crazy case a few years back with a Porter plane that was flying out of Toronto, Billy Bishop Airport, going out over Lake Ontario. Here in Canada, a lot of people say they see things over Lake Ontario, right? Because the Great Lakes, they're massive. And this plane was, I think it was flying in to believe it, I think it was flying in and it, Porter planes are kind of smaller commuter planes and it actually had to do like a nose dive to avoid an object that they said was a donut shaped. So it had a hole in the center. flight attendant was injured. And, you know, they did land, but I got the report for that. I was so interested in that, that I actually reached out to like NAV Canada, filed like an information request and got the report, the official report that was issued. So, you know, we do have like near misses with civilian aircraft here in Canada, you know, this stuff happens here. It's not like it doesn't happen, right? Yeah. I mean, Canada has the space, right? Like so much of it is remote. It's in the boonies, it's in the sticks, like no one's there. So if you're looking for UFOs, a big foot, and they're trying to hide, Canada is a pretty good place for them to go. Yeah, just thousands and thousands of miles of wilderness. And Canada also had some involvement when the US shot down that Chinese spy balloon, I want to say in 2022. they, oh, sorry, the US opened up. their kind of apertures to look at smaller objects outside of the kind of their filters and found several objects, some of which were in Canadian territory and Canada helped them take them down and recover them. And many of them, we don't even know where it went. You know, we're not being told anything. And this kind of thing just fuels conspiracy theories. And that's what's frustrating for me about all this. The DOD or, you know, the UK, the MOD in the UK, will say, no, there's no UFOs. Speaker 2 (54:29.688) but they also won't give you an answer. So you're just left with a gap and people just fill gaps with beliefs and hopes and dreams. you know, I get it. I totally appreciate it. But I think if these official organizations want people to become informed and educated and more alert to actual strange things in the sky, which they probably should because drone warfare is becoming a thing now, right? And that Chinese spy balloon was found by some dude just on a beach taking a picture and going, look, there's a balloon. And that's how they found it. So, you know, the people are a crowdsourced defense system now in a way against this kind of stuff. So it's just sensible to educate the public. Totally. That is such a good point. Such a good point. Yeah. And Dale actually sent me an article a few weeks ago or a week ago, I guess, talking about how most experts now believe that aliens exist. And so that was in the BBC. So there's a UK connection, Absolutely. Yeah. experts now are coming forward saying, we believe there's things in the sky that we don't understand and we need to pay more attention. and being a lot more forward about it. And I do think like these hearings in the States really do have a lot to do with that. You know, can seem dry on the outside, like, you know, having that public, you know, consultation and people seeing that and feeling comfortable to come forward and makes people say, okay, well, maybe it is okay to think about this or believe in this or maybe explore it a little more, just crack my mind open. We're in the age of James Webb's space telescope and seeing all these incredible images of these galaxies and learning that these exoplanets are out there. I was reading something from Carl Sagan and I realized that when Carl Sagan was alive, we didn't know if they were exoplanets. Now we've counted like 5,000 of them. So that's just such a different place to have the conversation of is there intelligent life out there from? We know there are houses out there that can support life. Carl Sagan didn't. Speaker 2 (56:29.166) think there were any houses out there and there was no science to say that there was. he was kind of operating his skepticism on the science available at the time. But he still made something like contact, which is weird, right? And it gets into the consciousness stuff. know, if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend people go watch it. But I'm going to segue into the UK stuff now. Yes, please do. that's Canada there. So UK has a kind of a weird little history with this. From 1997 to 2000, The UK was carrying out something called Project Condyne. It was a top secret UK defense project. It was sifting through thousands of UFO reports, dismissing aliens, but it kind of warns of mysterious plasma-like phenomena in our skies. There's a lot of stuff that's redacted from it. And it's amazing to me that actually... the UK in terms of their assessment with this plasma kind of like stuff they're talking about is actually in front of the conversation in a lot of ways because they're giving you their best assessment of what a lot of these kind of events are. That was revealed in 2006. And then in 2008, Britain's National Archives began releasing thousands of these documents spanning decades. There's radar operators, pilots, everyday citizens. There's even radar reports in there. The documents didn't confirm alien visitors, but they did reveal how seriously the Ministry of Defense tracks the unexplained and make sure they know what is in the skies. And it was David Clark of Sheffield Hallam University who released those. He worked with the government and the National Archives to release those tranches and went through them. He has a book that you can go read that breaks down the best cases. He also did a video series online. And David, you might... recognize his name a little bit because recently he was the guy that found the calvene ufo photo after 30 years of investigating and he released it for everyone he got an analysis done he is Speaker 1 (58:25.428) Hero, hero, national treasure. He is my favorite skeptic. That's what I said to him when I met him. He's got his head screwed on and he comes from a background thinking about folklore and how these kind of folklore builds. But he also doesn't dismiss, you know, he knows in his work, he talks about farmers sat in their watch by these fireballs in the sky to plant their crops to get a good harvest. And he makes the point like, well, the fireballs are there because they're... they're doing it and it's working. you know, that's how they're making their food and it's a survival thing. So obviously there's something there, even though the folklore is kind of misshapen, the stories that are being told. Yeah. And he's made some incredible books about all of this. The UK government as standard does deny any proof of extraterrestrials. But if you send them a letter saying, Hey, there was a weird thing in the sky last night. What was it? They'll respond to you with. pretty much like a one paragraph thing saying we have no proof of extra thresholds and you just. Well, I didn't ask about extra thresholds, so it's weird that you bring it Right. Speaker 1 (59:31.496) They probably got enough around Randall Shum. They have like a very blank, you know, blanket response, right? Yeah. Right. Wow. So that's. Exactly. UK, there's no hearings going on. That's kind of where they're at. Project Condyne, highly recommend people read it. It's a long read, but there's just a lot in there. And especially when it comes to the Calvin stuff, because that's where it was first found. And then David found the picture and obviously it goes on and we will hopefully be having David for an interview. Yes, please, please, David. That would be amazing. Would love to hear from him. On the other side of the planet, Japan is stepping up its investigation into UAP, focusing on national security. group of over 80 lawmakers, including defense ministers, was formed to study UAPs prompted by sightings near sensitive sites. They've requested this year for the Ministry of Defense to create a dedicated UAP research office. So they are on it over in Japan. Like they're taking this seriously. In France, The government is on the case. There's a called Gaipan, Groupe de Tudes et de l'Information, Sola Phenomena, Aero... My French accent is terrible. It is the study and information group on unidentified aerospace phenomena. That is an official government UAP investigation under CNES, which is the National Center for Space Studies. And they've been going since 1977. Speaker 2 (01:00:59.95) They don't endorse any particular explanation or say that it's easy here, but they do admit that some cases are unexplained and strange. So they're on it. is like the model to follow as far as I can see. And Gaipan has issued a really amazing report to a number of years ago, right? That was studying the phenomenon where they came to the conclusion that it was likely, you know, extraterrestrial or not, you know, yeah, that was the conclusion that came to. So that's that. So that's I'm so confused now because I'm a British person in America and I'm like not putting the UN color anymore and I'm like You know, welcome to my life in Canada. because half French is the other national language, right? So it's always on my mind. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (01:01:46.862) And then in more controversial things in Peru, we've got alien mummies. In 2023, strange so-called alien mummies from Peru were unveiled in Mexico's Congress. They were kind of small, desiccated figures covered in a diatomic earth, claimed to be non-human. Grabs headlines worldwide, like you might have seen videos of like, is it cake? know, it became a meme of people cutting them and they were cake. But scientists have dismissed them as ancient human or animal remains cobbled together, but there are some people who disagree with it. Specific bodies, so the Peruz Institute for Legal Medicine continues to stand firm saying that they have fabrications, but they have made amazing dental kind of finds on these things and also metallic finds. So there is some weirdness around these. beings have fingerprints. One specimen is pregnant. Another specimen has an osmium, which is a super rare metal plate fused into its chest as if the skin's grown over it, which it wouldn't do if it was alive. So some of these bodies seem to be fake. Some of them seem to have questions around them. So that's something worth watching. And talking of something worth watching, what happened this week, Roz? Oh my gosh. Okay. Are we getting into Skinwalker Ranch? Are we getting into it? Okay. Awesome. Awesome. was like Gary Nolan on Joe Rogan was awesome. But Skinwalker Ranch was, I mean, it was the season finale. You guys, I'm a Skinwalker Ranch fanatic. I watch every episode. I watch Beyond Skinwalker Ranch. I watched the whole thing with the weird host they had come in this year to ask the guys from Skinwalker Ranch questions. after the episode ended, I can't remember what it's called, like a behind the scenes kind of show. Something like that. It's gonna walk around show some branch. I don't Speaker 1 (01:03:33.478) Yeah, the poor host is getting just slagged on. People are just having a heyday with him. But yeah, I mean, it was an amazing season. they, you know, as per usual, there's some episodes that are kind of nothing burgers and then other episodes that are really great. But they had like amazing experiments this year. I mean, I love the show just for the sheer like science that they're doing there or they're bringing in. drone swarms and pyrotechnic companies and their GPS data and gamma radiation and they're putting it on kayaks and they're walking rivers and they're like, they're doing all of the science. And for me, like I'm a gear head. like, you know, cause I produce, so I love gear. Like I love watching somebody use a really cool drone, you know, to do something that is unique. And so the season I thought was great, but the big deal was that they found these pieces of ceramics in the mesa. you know, of course, of course there's like, you know, there's the Skinwalker Ranch bingo card, right? What the crap? That's my choice, Taylor. Yeah, Thomas's head hurts. know, basically, every time these things happen, you know, drink what in the world? That's my other Travis Taylor impression. But, you know, it was really cool because they found they've been drilling through the Mesa trying to get these holes so that because they've through LIDAR scans, they've found some weird objects in there. You know, of course, the implication is like, we don't know what it is. Could be some kind of crashed object. You know, they know for sure that something is in there. And this season they found like a nickel in the spoils. So they know that there was some kind of excavation there at some point. Speaker 1 (01:05:19.264) Right. so according to the archaeologists on site, because they've had an archaeologist on site this year, which is really cool. So he's like going through the actual, is he geologist? One or the other. He's going through the spoils of the, you know, as they're drilling through the mesa to look at what's coming out of there, he found the nickel. And he's the one that told them like, this is standard practice for people who are digging to drop a nickel from that year in the hole, so that when you excavate it later, you find it and you know that's when they dug there. So that was kind of the cool thing. And then they found these pieces of ceramic that, you know, as Travis was saying, like they took to the lab in Utah, which by the way is like has branded Fuels name on the university. Like the guy has so much money. Like living in Canada, I have no concept of this kind of money. Okay. Cause like, you know, there's not many Canadians that are that loaded, right? just is. And they also got a satellite this year, So maybe Brandon Fugal, but not Brandon Frugal, we'll say. Yeah, like, okay, can we have a moment for that? was genius. And yes, they launched a satellite. So of course, at the end of the season, they say, you know, we are going to launch a satellite, anyone who's been on Reddit knows they've already launched it. So that's going to be in the next season. But they're launching it with a or they launched it with SpaceX. So they actually attached it to one of the Falcon nine, you know, rockets and they launched as a satellite. So My husband and I are laughing watching this. I'm just like, how much money? And he's like millions and millions and millions of dollars. I don't know how they're doing it. Whether Brandon Fugal is just bankrolling it or whether they have investors or whether these people are just getting so much exposure from being on Skinwalker Ranch. They're like, sure, I'll do it because then all these people are going to hear my company name. I'm not sure how they're bankrolling it. Speaker 1 (01:07:15.188) The money alone that's going into these experiments that they're doing is just kind of gobsmacking. nine to $15 million to launch the Falcon rocket. it might not be the only thing on it, right? Brandon could split that cost with other people for the payload, but yeah, for people saying he's not pouring his money where his mouth is, mean, speaks for itself, I think. Yeah, and so next season, I mean, you know, like the first three episodes will be about them, like prepping the stuff they're putting on the satellite, like the measurement things, and then like actually launching it, we know, like for sure, we're going to see that in next season. And then they're going to be using it to communicate, right, to the whole like 1.6 gigahertz of space to Earth, Earth to space communicate every single episode they tell talk about this in the communication signals that they get from the ranch and stuff being in that Earth to space kind of zone. It's going to be fascinating. I just really between the materials this year, the ceramics that they found, taking it to the lab, all these crazy, you know, it's basically like a superconductor. They think it's like a type of superconductor, this material, and they do believe that it's not natural. It's definitely manmade. I thought like heat tiles for space shuttles and things like that. But obviously if they buried with a 1962 penny, that's a bit weird. yeah, also I'm guessing like Travis worked in Huntsville, right? That's like Rocket City. He knows what a heat shield on a rocket looks like. I feel okay trusting him on that. Speaker 1 (01:08:46.606) Yes, totally. And that's the other thing with it for anybody, know, the Bailey's who haven't watched the show. You know, it's all like it's these people are all like accredited scientists like Travis Taylor is like an astrophysicist. He's worked for NASA. He's worked for Aero, right? He's been on the task force. Also really cool season finale this year was to see Jay Stratton there with Gary Nolan. Yeah. So they have a big roundtable. Gary Nolan's there. Travis Taylor's there. Like I got to say the lack of female representation. It really, you know, kind of irks me on the show. That's my one. You're rocking it right here, Roz. You're representing. And I'm pleased to say, you know, we've got about six weeks of content in the can. And after Richard, who is, you know, a white guy in the UFO community talking, which everyone is, it is a whole run of women. And I'm so proud of that. And I'm so proud to lift people up and give them a platform. So I hope people vibe with that. I love it. And that was all your programming down. So that's amazing. Yeah. Some amazing female scientists on the show. And that's the other cool thing I'm so excited about just with this show is like, you know, being able to talk to these people and, you know, get inside their heads a little bit, find out what their thoughts are. like, We also talked to Maya this season who is an anthropologist, but she has an Indigenous heritage, I think, right? she's got a whole connection there that comes from a completely different angle. know, spirituality, Indigenous spirituality, thinking about those things, I think, in connection with the phenomenon is so fascinating, right? So, yeah. So, that's my skinwalker update. I'm super excited. Speaker 2 (01:10:20.526) Great. Thank you so much. We need to get you like a nice graphic for like rather skin walker corner. And yeah, and we have, there's one more guest that I know we've got the can, the wonderful Sarah Gam from the UAP taskforce. know there's been some controversy and some questions people have, but Sarah gave us a blazing interview, super kind. And it goes from everything from our government work into mediumship. we really get into it, you know, cause. This is a nice thing, you know, we're kind of in this, we like this stuff, so we're able to kind of get a bit deeper with these people than folk that perhaps haven't had that experience. Totally. Yeah, I love it. We've got a killer lineup. I'm so excited to roll these episodes out. And Dan, I think that's the end of our first episode. Speaker 1 (01:11:08.398) No, okay, okay, we're gonna cut to it. Okay, we're gonna cut to it. Here we go in three two one Speaker 1 (01:11:18.926) You Speaker 2 (01:11:22.55) It's a bird. I can't believe it's a bird. What business does a bird have doing that? It's a- Speaker 1 (01:11:29.302) Want to watch it one more time? Like birds do this for fun. That's wild. think if I saw that in the sky, just for a second, and it went behind some trees and stuff, I would be baffled. I wouldn't know what I was looking at, you know? spinning of it alone is like this whole thing at the beginning really made me go, that's weird. And then it wasn't until it comes down. And of course this apple, the bar is over it, but you can kind of see the wings, right? Start to unfold there. There we go. it's like a flying turkey. And here it comes. Now we realize, yeah, it's a pigeon. Yeah, it's a pigeon. And also a good example, Roz, of us taking a completely prosaic, silly video of something weird in the sky and you can edit it. So it's a three second video and someone probably posted that on social media and said it was a UFO, right? Like that video is going to be out there. Whereas, yeah, I think it's fun and awesome to educate ourselves a little bit, learn that something got damn wild. Did he take LSD before he was in the shot or something? What the hell? Speaker 2 (01:12:44.814) That was a great one. that's first UFO, you have to know. Thank you so much for joining me, Roz, for our first episode. And thank you to everybody who listened. It's a pleasure to finally get this rolling, to get this out there. We'll see you again in two weeks for another episode of The Signal. Until then, enjoy some interviews and some meditative moments. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Spotify or on your chosen platform. If you could like, share, subscribe, that would be awesome. It helps us find our people and our tribe. If you'd like to support the show and get access to a one hour live chat each month and early ad free access, you can find us at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes or at our website to be human show dot com. Please feel free to reach out to us via the contact page on the website or email at hello at to be human show dot com. You can also find us on blue sky threads, Instagram X, my space, Bebo. No, not those two, but the rest of them. Yes. At to be human show. Thank you. so much again for joining us, it means the world to me. And as always, remember to be curious because the universe is bigger than we know. What it means to be human is a Double Barrel production. This week's episode was produced by Roz Mugford and Dan Zetterstrom. Sound post-production by Parker Mosley with technical support from Dale Mugford. Our theme music is by Thunderbird.